Two climbers walk up to their projects.
Climber one takes the butterfly-coiled rope off their back, racks some cams, laces up a pair of mid-top street-shoe-size climbing shoes, and traces that 8 like a bawse.
Climber two strolls up, unfurls a meticulously origamied rope bag, squeezes their feet into two-sizes-too-small downturned slippers and then twists a double bowline through their harness like a cowboy hitching a horse to a post.
Judging by their knots, we assume climber one is about to hand jam to glory while climber two is readying themselves for a bolted pumpfest.
But is there a benefit to tying in with a figure 8 vs a double bowline? Or vice versa?
This could be the most divisive disquisition in climbing history. Replete with age-old stereotypes and lore, this topic has been fervently debated for decades around campfires, at the crag, on blogs, and of course SuperTopo forums.
The old adage is that the figure 8 knot is easier to check visually, making it safer, while the double bowline knot is easier to untie after a fall is taken. This brings us to back to those two stereotypes.
First up, we have the crusty tradster. You know, painter pants, striped tee, weird Tyrolean hat, old-school ethics. This camp definitely ties in with the tried-and-true figure 8. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Next, we have the sport jockey. Doing whatever it takes to send the gnar, this performance-driven crew ties their flossy 8.9’s with a double bowline. Who can possibly untie a cinched up 8 when you’re proper bricked after a punt off the ol’ proj?
But do these stereotypes hold merit? And is the double bowline truly the preferred knot for sport climbers while the figure 8 remains the old standby for everyone else?
We decided to ask a few Black Diamond Athletes and take a big ol’ whipper into this debate.
Let's see what we unravel...
Top of the list was next-level trad climber Connor Herson. In truth, Connor is as versatile as a Toyota Previa, but he’s perhaps best known for placing widgets while free climbing The Nose (VI 5.14a) on El Cap at age 15 and sending Empath (5.14d) on gear. Born into a climbing family, Connor embodies old-school style with a modern slant.
So, can you guess which knot he prefers?
“Figure 8 all the way,” says this reticent ropegun. “Way easier to double check.”
OK, checks out.
Let’s switch it up and see what comp queen Natalia Grossman ties in with. As a world cup competitor, Natalia smashed the glass ceiling for Americans by becoming the IFSC bouldering world champion in 2021. Then, she did it again in 2022. She’s also competitive on the lead circuit, and in her down time has climbed 5.14b outside. So, what does Natalia, the epitome of new-school, tie in with?
“Figure 8, because I’ve never been taught anything else.”
And she adds: “Also, the double bowline isn’t allowed in comps.”
Ah, now there’s a little nugget of contradiction for the classic stereotypes of knot tiers. No double bowlines for the sport climbing comp crushers? Interesting...
For Carlo Traversi—who climbed both 5.15b sport AND 5.14+ trad just last year—the figure 8 is again the choice du jour.
“I use a simple Figure 8 with no backup knot and no finish,” says Carlo. “I've never had issues with the tail getting in my way and I've always appreciated how simple it is to visually check the knot.”
That said, Carlo wasn’t always on the 8 train.
“I used a double bowline for a few years when I was younger, but I felt like it was harder to visually inspect and sometimes it would loosen up more than I was comfortable with,” says Carlo.
Recent Reel Rock stars, and first to free repeat Magic Mushroom, Jacopo Larcher and Babsi Zangerl were next on our list. As one of the most successful big wall teams to ever rope up together we figured (pun intended) that the 8 would also be their knot of choice.
Jacopo chimed in first:
“Well, I actually do both,” he explained. “I tie in with a double bowline on single pitches (sport and trad), but with a figure 8 on multi pitch/bigwalls and/or when I use double ropes.”
As a man who’s climbed both 5.15 sport and 5.14+ on gear (and possibly 5.15 trad with his ascent of Tribe), it makes sense that he’s equally comfortable with both knots. And his application for each style of climbing is a testament to his virtuosity. But according to Jacopo, his whole bowline infatuation started because he simply wanted to be cool.
“When I started climbing, I used to always tie in with a figure 8, as that’s how I was taught … but later on I realized that all the cool guys were using the bowline, especially one mountain guide and mentor I’d been looking up to. So, I switched to the bowline too!”
“I didn’t ask anyone as I didn’t want to be the one who didn’t know how to do it.”
But Jacopo’s quick to point out:
“Now, I don’t use it anymore because it’s ‘cool,’ but because it’s way easier to untie if you take big falls and it causes less damage to the tie-in points of the harness.”
As for the figure 8, he elaborates:
“With double ropes I tie in with the figure 8 as two double bowlines would barely fit in the tie-in points of the harness. On big walls I use the figure 8 for the same reason, as I mostly also have a daisy chain on my harness, and I’m worried it could partially untie while being so long on the wall (especially with hauling).”
As for Babsi, Jacopo’s partner both on the wall and off, she’s a little less fluid when it comes to tying the knot … ehem!
“I tie in with a figure 8,” says this El Cap crusher and recent flasher of Nameless Tower’s Eternal Flame. “This is the knot my brother showed me on my first climbing day when I was 14 years old.”
As to Jacopo’s easy going knot swinging ways?
“When I started dating Jacopo I changed to the bowline,” says Babsi. “I then had a bad experience on a big wall with it, so got back to the 8 again.”
Bad experience???
“The bowline opened halfway—after half day of climbing,” she explained. “Saw it very late and was scared.”
Conclusion
So, therein lies the rub with the double bowline. According to our QC Lab manager and all-around mountain hardman Matt Berry, the double bowline “is great/advantageous for people working routes where you are going to be weighting the rope a lot/ falling/ dogging since it’s super easy to untie.”
But, he adds, “the double bowline needs to be pre-tightened and dressed well and can come loose in some situations.”
In Berry’s expert opinion, the 8 is the way.
“I don’t think the difficulty of untying a figure 8 after it’s been weighted is that bad ... it’s way easier to inspect and it self-tightens and doesn’t loosen with repeated loads.”
As for our inveterate gear guru Kolin “KP” Powick, he points out:
“Super easy to untie—isn’t that counter to the whole point of tying-in in the first place?
That’s my biggest argument to people that say the bowline is easy to untie,” says KP.
“I mean it’s not like I’ve ever seen someone walking around with their harness on and a bunch of ends of ropes still tied into their tie-in points that they had to cut because the figure 8s were too hard to untie.”
But he’s quick to add that whether it’s an 8 or a double bowline, both knots require visual inspection and can both come untied if not finished correctly.
“In the end, it doesn’t matter what you’re tying in with—always check your knot before you leave the ground.”
So, there you have it. While both knots work well when dressed and tied correctly, it seems the 8 is predominantly the method of choice when polling the BD athlete team. As for those stereotypes? Well, there was one more person to ask …
Arguably the best sport climber alive, Seb Bouin, is a purist when it comes to his style of climbing—meaning he solely focuses on trying to establish and climb the world’s hardest bolted king lines. Plus, he’s French, so surely, he’s a bowline guy, right?
“I am doing a figure 8,” says Seb. “Just because I started with this one and never changed it.”
And for someone who takes massive whips on the reg, he adds:
“If you do it right, there is not a problem to untie it.”
So, the guy who climbs 5.15d doesn’t have much trouble untying an 8. Fair enough.
